Former coach Santiago Santos, on exclusion from the World Cup: "Some cheaters have broken the illusion of Spanish rugby"

Santiago Santos, former Spanish rugby coach, proudly remembers the “crowded” National Complutense Stadium when the Lions qualified for two World Cups in 2018 and 2022.. A dream broken by sanctions for improper alignment. After a long silence, the coach tells EL MUNDO how he experienced, a year and a half ago, the scandal over Gavin van den Berg's false papers. And he admits, not without resignation, that he is following the World Cup in France on TV.

What is drawing your attention about the World Cup?
The performance of Australia, below expectations or that of Fiji, which has surpassed it. In Tier 2, Uruguay, Chile, Samoa and Tonga are achieving expected and good results..
And about the game?
It is a continuous evolution between attack-defense and defense-attack. In the previous cycle, South Africa's defensive rugby won. In this one, Ireland and France are attacking very well. There was a time when the bump prevailed. Now, look for spaces, the attack strategy…. It's at a very interesting point. What feeling does it make you not to be there?
Sadness above all. The anger passed long ago.
When we hear praise for Portugal and Uruguay, could Spain reach that level?
And more. Sportingly we have beaten them. You arrive at a World Cup in peak form. Uruguay and Portugal are better than a year ago. If we had been there, we would have gone with two or three months of preparation and reached a level never seen before in the national team.
How has the team evolved in the decade that you have directed it?
Spanish rugby is more competitive, the selection is the reflection. We have reached 15th place in the world ranking. With ups and downs, the sporting evolution has been very positive. We have managed to fill stadiums, bring rugby to Wanda. Then there is the sad part, but also the satisfaction of serving as a driving force, of generating excitement..
Do you see the sanction against the national team as fair?
Justice is complicated to define; life is not fair… From the perspective of life and Spanish rugby, it is not fair. From the strictly legal, it can be fair. But I think that world rugby has not done justice to the Spanish in the last decade.
You were interested in incorporating Van den Berg, the player whose papers were false
It is up to me to select the best selectable players, not to see who is selectable and who is not.
Were they warned that there could be problems?
I had several conversations with both Tiki and Fernando Díez [Alcobendas coaches] in September, October and November [2021].. It was Tiki who told me 'hey, Van den Berg is selectable'. I spoke to the Federation and they told me 'it's not'. And that insistence was during several conversations. In the end a famous photocopy appeared, and the Alcobendas technicians told me 'that the papers are already there'. I was going 'tell me now, is it or not, because, if not, I won't select it?'. In the papers they presented, falsified photocopies, it seems that there was a mismatch of one day or two days that did not meet the deadlines. I told the manager, and he told the Federation, 'we are not going to take any risks, we are going to consult World Rugby.'. That query was made, then we see that the papers were falsified.

Santiago Santos alludes to the fact that the International Federation gave a first approval to the player's lineup. But that query was made about the dates included in the falsified photocopy of a passport that the Spanish Federation accepted as valid.. It was later discovered that Van den Berg had been outside Spain for more than four months in 2019, well above the two allowed.

In some non-qualifying matches, they did field players who later disappeared
We always move by what the Eligibility Committee tells us. In these cases they never told us that they were not selectable, but that preferably they should not be selected because there could be doubts. Unless it was essential, and then they would move. And, although they were good players, they were not essential.
Do you think the players missed clearer support from you after the sanction?
No, with the players there have been moments to talk and clarify things. The dialogue with the captain and with the leaders has always been fluid.
Someone perceived that you were defeatist about resorting to sanctions
I was not a defeatist, I have remained silent. From the Federation they said that the issue was handled by the lawyers, maximum discretion or maximum silence to avoid making a mistake. Personally, I saw it as bad, but I have maintained hope because the issue of justice is very relative.. What's more, if our weight in World Rugby were different, possibly the results of both the 2018 process and this one….
What would you say to those involved in counterfeiting?
That they have broken the illusion of all of Spanish rugby, of many people, of coaches, players, staff, who have given a lot of sacrifice and effort thrown away by some cheaters.
Another nuance of the Van den Berg case is that he resorted to an assimilated South African player as a substitute for the substitute. To be competitive, you need three high-level players per position. And in key positions, up to four. Fernando and Tití were there, very competitive. But you need four. So, you have to see who was next, and there were people who were very, very young or very far from the international level.
That portrays…..the level of Spanish rugby.

And doesn't it clash with your role as sports director?
Basically, my job as sports director was non-existent because I was not allowed to direct anything, I directed the national team. The sports direction was led by Alfonso Feijóo, who prioritized sevens, other expenses… I directed little. It also has a lot to do with a serious problem in Spanish rugby.. When there is so much talk about foreign players, Spanish, nationalized, French, the problem is blurred.. The parameter that must be seen is professional – amateur. And few people reach the useful age at the international level by being a professional..

Santiago Santos, at the Ángel Navarrete Complutense National Stadium El Mundo

Santos slips that he did not feel fully supported by the previous leadership of the Federation and leaves the offices. “My job was for Spain to win,” he concludes in front of a coffee. The new board asked him to begin the transition and dismissed him in April. The former coach disagrees with some of his approaches. He also regrets that the pressure from his French clubs prevents many selectable players from attending many call-ups.

Will our rugby level up based on players trained here? The player trained in Spain is getting better and better. I have a lot of faith, but if we are not able to get the best to become professionals, this is not going to evolve.. And many people do not understand that the U20s are not going to be in the World Cup in Australia. There could be one, two…. You cannot build a national team based on young people.. We need to retain the good ones, for the clubs to be professional and, if they are not really professional, for them to go to France to play. And if not, let the Federation have a franchise, not what is going to be done now, a paripé because there are three, four games. The problem is how to ensure that the best continue playing. And is a selection based on the quarry possible? The selection is not to train players, it is to compete. Based on quarry alone, in the current context you cannot grow. In general, from the federation perspective we are amateurs. Because we don't call the best, we call the best that can come. In many games we are missing 10/15 players, and many are from the quarry. It makes no sense that we talk about building a team with a youth team and that our best youth players cannot come. Where do you see the team in 10 years? I remain optimistic, but the problem is not a sporting one, where 27,000 things have to be improved but we have shown that you can compete. The sports area has objectively achieved the results and there has been a failure in the offices. In the last two World Cups we have been left out due to administrative issues and there have not been enough changes in that area and yes in the sporting area.. And the economic issue. If we are able to ensure that those 30 under-20 players who have won the Trophy continue playing professional rugby in ten years, our future is great.. Now, of what we produce, we keep 20%. The objective is to maintain 70/80%. How have you felt treated by the new management of the Federation? I think it is unfair, but it is a personal feeling. To what extent has what happened in the last year and a half affected you personally? ?It has been very hard for me and for many people, I do not want anyone to experience something similar. It is very hard to see yourself out of a World Cup in this way, it is the feeling of frustration, of disappointment, of going through a mourning, like when a loved one dies. How would you like to say goodbye to the fans? With optimism and faith in Spanish rugby. I think it's better than where we found it.. Frustrated by all the non-sports events, but I think we have generated a very good momentum. With its lights and shadows, the overall balance is positive.